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View Full Version : That prop 8 vent discussion


Campbell
Mon 13 Oct 2008, 1851, Mon 13 Oct 2008
In response to Kavadas' question of who is the major backer of prop 8 in California, its the Mormons. They have provided the vast majority of the financial backing for it. There are two cases where individual families are dumping their entire savings and kids college funds into the prop, one family donated $50k, another $35k this is just crazy, that's their kids college fund...

The problem the religious types have is that the gay's want to use the word "married" to define their relationship. The word is religious in nature but is built into the secular structure. My solution is to remove the word married from all secular documents, regardless of gender, color or creed, so as far as the state is concerned, no one gets married, just joined in civil union. If someone wants to get "married" they have to go to a church for a separate, non state sanctioned ceremony. However this will never happen because the christians who want gay's to not use their word would be equally offended if the word were removed from secular language.

So this boils down to an issue of freedom. You are born in the US and are a US citizen with all rights that the status carries with it. You have many freedom's, but as soon as you are born you start entering various societies and whatnot that feel you should limit your freedoms for their various reasons, ie the religious refusal to have homosexual marriage. It is these christians choice to limit their freedom, not the state or anyone else's choice, therefore they have no right to limit other people's choice by forcing it into the state or even federal constitution.

This is further complicated because the word marriage is used so lightly these days, and there are congregations that welcome homosexuals, and perform gay marriages, who's to say that these gay christian splinter groups are not allowed to use the christian word "marriage"? No one is.

For anyone who cares, voting No on 8 will keep things the way they are, ala gay marriage is legal in california. The mormons and many, many other religious groups are dumping millions of dollars into my airwaves to convince folk to vote yes, and ban gay marriage once and for all.

I oppose the ban simply because it forces one religions values onto the rest of society. I favor freedom for all in situations like this. If the damn christians don't want to have gay marriage with eachother, then good for them, but they can't be allowed to force that value on everyone ese. I am not gay, I don't want to ever marry another dude, but I'm not going to tell em they cant just because I don't like the idea.

Kavadas
Mon 13 Oct 2008, 1934, Mon 13 Oct 2008
I find it hilarious that the Mormons are leading the charge when they've been historically persecuted for... well, their definition of marriage.

And by the way, as long as everyone is a consenting adult I think polygamy should be legal too.

Astrid
Mon 13 Oct 2008, 2234, Mon 13 Oct 2008
I married my spouse in beautiful San Diego, California on September 9th. Anyone who votes for Prop 8 is my de facto enemy. Period, the end. What part of "equal protection under the law for all" do these fuckheads not understand?

Every argument against same-sex marriage, once the excess verbiage is stripped away, reduces to bigotry, fear, unfairness, or religiousness--none of which have any place in our government.

Astrid
Mon 13 Oct 2008, 2236, Mon 13 Oct 2008
And by the way, as long as everyone is a consenting adult I think polyamory should be legal too.

Edited for hotness.

I would support this. Kim and I are looking for a third. =D

Maximian
Mon 13 Oct 2008, 2334, Mon 13 Oct 2008
Seriously, why hate on ppl that have obiously found what we are all looking for in someone that happens to be the same sex? As a human being Im sorry my daughter has to grow up in such an intolerant society.

Gratz Astrid !!
<3

Campbell
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 0047, Tue 14 Oct 2008
My post is a bit harsh sounding, I simply hate the hate that these fuckers try to force on everyone else. I have a co worker, a good friend. Him and I have been going back and forth on this issue all day (for fun), and what I posted was kinda my final argument.

Do you live in CA? How bout them attack adds in favor of 8, those are some seriously fucked up pieces of work. Like the one with the little girl that wants to be a frog so she can marry a princess. Co workers and I were sitting around the tv at break when that one came on, took about 5 seconds for us to get it.

If anyone wants to see true evil, read all the Pro 8 literature you can find.

Kavadas
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 0328, Tue 14 Oct 2008
Edited for hotness.

I would support this. Kim and I are looking for a third. =D

Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure you'd be able to keep up with me.

:sex:

Cooke
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 1154, Tue 14 Oct 2008
I keep wondering when this 2 century old idea of "Separation of church and state" is going to kick in.

I don't understand the complete and utter fear people have of homosexuality. I'm going to have a gay couple as Best Man and Groomsman in my wedding (no, I'm not gay) and I really hope that my dumbassly conservative family from Cincinnati takes it as an eye opener.

I just want to knock on people's noggins and say "We all people dum dums!"

Astrid
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 1232, Tue 14 Oct 2008
Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure you'd be able to keep up with me.

:sex:

That's the beauty of there being two of us. . .

Draconis
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 1307, Tue 14 Oct 2008
I'd rather marriage keep the meaning of "man & wife", but I understand that things do change. The offensive pro 8 ads have ensured that I will vote against it.

Given the laws concerning divorce, I caution all those who consider getting married to think twice about what a divorce will do to them.

Kavadas
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 1325, Tue 14 Oct 2008
That's the beauty of there being two of us. . .

Alright, I'm in... only rule is I cooks when I wants. Or when you get me drunk enough to start telling me what to do and I don't question it :smokin:

Campbell
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 1731, Tue 14 Oct 2008
Astrid, could you explain the difference between civil union and marriage? My co worker claims they are identical in terms of rights, but that doesn't sound correct.

Kavadas
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 1805, Tue 14 Oct 2008
Marriage establishes a legal kinship between spouses whereas civil unions do not. In addition, only a handful of states even offer same sex civil unions.

Civil unions are not recognized by the federal government so a couple in a civil union couldn't file a joint tax return, for one example, nor are they eligible for the same tax breaks as a married couple. I wrote a thesis awhile ago on Libertarianism and gay marriage was one of the topics I covered extensively.

On top of the one or two examples above there was a report from the... General Accounting Administration I think it was, which stated that there are over 1,000 benefits a legally married couple enjoyed that a same sex civil union couple could not take advantage of. The lack of benefits can't be made up via legal paperwork or representation either. I mean, it's flat out a gross denial of basic rights.

As much as I'm pro-gay rights I'm even more pro-U.S. Constitution and this blatant, offensive, and wreckless denial of rights contradicts everything that document stands for.

Revoco
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 2019, Tue 14 Oct 2008
If you've told me before i have forgotten, but what is your major field of study kav?

Astrid
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 2247, Tue 14 Oct 2008
Astrid, could you explain the difference between civil union and marriage? My co worker claims they are identical in terms of rights, but that doesn't sound correct.

Kavadas beat me to most of the salient points, but I do have one thing to add to his magnificent post:

If civil unions and marriage were actually identical for all purposes (which, as Kav pointed out, they most definitely are not), then what is the compelling state interest in reserving the word "marriage" for opposite-sex couples and "civil union" for same-sex couples? Answer: there is none. Reason: look up the history of the phrase "separate but equal" and how it relates to civil rights.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal)

Kavadas
Tue 14 Oct 2008, 2320, Tue 14 Oct 2008
If you've told me before i have forgotten, but what is your major field of study kav?

Political Science.